Your Rating for DOA6

[Seigen]

If you don't like the stun game and the holds why even play DOA? These are DOA core mechanics. Do you want DOA to just turn into VF? Then play VF.

Nobody forced anyone to SE if they didn't like to, you could play just fine without doing it. But it added another layer to the mind games which are based on the stun and hold system.

Also, holds are not just random guessing, maybe they are for a bad player, but a good player will make most of the time an educated guess or a read to do a successful hold.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

Doa in a sense is vf but dumb down but id be fine if doa turned into vf. IMO better triangle system than doas lol

 

[human013]

If you don't like the stun game and the holds why even play DOA? These are DOA core mechanics. Do you want DOA to just turn into VF? Then play VF.

Because I enjoy playing DOA? People can like a game and not enjoy parts of it too. There are a bunch of people who want throw breaks in DOA, should they also just go play another game because its not a part of DOA's core mechanics? I don't know how VF plays and I never played it, but judging from what I've seen I wouldn't mind if DOA took some elements from VF. Seeing a DOA game that has as much movement as VF would be great. And I do want to play VF. I'm just waiting for a new game.

Nobody forced anyone to SE if they didn't like to, you could play just fine without doing it. But it added another layer to the mind games which are based on the stun and hold system.

It is a mechanic that is available and is used to help a player. Just like Just Guarding and Instant Blocking, they help and should be used. What it did was make the game more stationary in a sense and encouraged throwing out holds if you didn't SE. I don't see any of that as deep. One is guessing and the other is mashing buttons.

Also, holds are not just random guessing, maybe they are for a bad player, but a good player will make most of the time an educated guess or a read to do a successful hold.

What makes those holds thrown out by JC Akira in that moment any different from the holds thrown out by any other player? What about the holds thrown out by Electrified Mann? Are those random or educated? And how do you differentiate between the two when all attacks at all levels are viable?

A random player gets hit and throws out a holds just like them and is wrong just like them. Who is doing the random guessing and who is doing the educated guessing? They all chose wrong.

 

[Seigen]

Because I enjoy playing DOA?

So what do you enjoy about DOA if you don't like the stun game and the holds or the movement? DOA already has throw breaks for neutral throws and it would make the game better to add them to directional throws as well while keeping them unbreakable as failed holds punishment. Adding stuff of value is not the same as removing stuff of value, one enriches the game, the other makes it poorer.

What it did was make the game more stationary in a sense and encouraged throwing out holds if you didn't SE.

DOA is stun and holds based, you are supposed to stun your opponent and to hold to get out of stun, that's the whole point of the game, if you guess wrong the opponent gets his damage, if you don't hold you risk getting launched. It seems you hate the mind games these mechanics bring. SE didn't make the game more stationary for the simple fact that when you're stunned you can't move anyway, with or without SE, see DOA6. DOA has one of the best movement of all 3D fighters (except DOA6, it's dogshit in there) as long as you're not stunned, which it seems is the mechanic that bothers you. TN removed an aditional tool to get out of stun for no reason, this is what should bother you. If you don't like the stun game I guess DOA is not for you since you want to turn it into something else.

Regarding the holds randomness, picking two players in a tourny that meet for the first time and don't know eachother's patterns doesn't prove anything. I guess you haven't been held to death in a match by a very good player that knows how you play. Try having a long session in DOA5 vs a very good player and see if he doesn't destroy you with his "random" holds.

 

[deathofaninja]

I agree with Human on many things actually, and I agree with that match being one of the best... what I think I may disagree with are the complications with holds. I've talked to many top players about this issue and they seem to think that holds are complicated when you add in the other variables of the game.

I think there are also some misunderstandings with players in this topic about liking or not liking DOA because something is complicated. Nobody ever said they didn't like DOA for having complicated elements... at least more recently in this post.

How do developers bring in new players to cater to their lack of skill? They don't. They play the game and get better or they play the game for what it is and enjoy single player content.

To players that think DOA isn't complicated at all - I doubt you've won a DOA5 major... Some of the Tekken boys thought they could just come into DOA and they learned the hard way they couldn't... similar to golf. You don't just pick up DOA.

 

[human013]

So what do you enjoy about DOA if you don't like the stun game and the holds or the movement?

Why does it have to be all or nothing? There is nothing in the middle? I like everything about DOA; from the fanservice to the holds. I just want less of certain things and more of other things.

Regarding the holds randomness, picking two players in a tourny that meet for the first time and don't know eachother's patterns doesn't prove anything. I guess you haven't been held to death in a match by a very good player that knows how you play. Try having a long session in DOA5 vs a very good player and see if he doesn't destroy you with his "random" holds.

I would think tournament players in a tournament setting are the best people to show off the game, but sure, show me tournament players who are familiar with each other's playstyle and one of them holding the other to death. The reason why that JC Akira match became so memorable was because he was doing things that were out of the ordinary. Even the commentators were amazed with his holds. You're telling me that DOA players do that consistently?

Also, I just want to point out that it was you who brought up "random" and "educated" specifically and I was just using the terms you used. I only said guessing and that was why I asked you how you differentiated random from educated. But continuing on to what you said, it only stops being "random" after a long session? What was it before then?

I'm not a pro so someone beating me or reading me doesn't mean much. I've done that to people and people have done that to me. But, what is the difference between me getting hit and guessing wrong vs a tournament player getting hit and guessing wrong? Which one is random? Are those missed holds from tournament players some advanced setup or beneficial to them in some way? Or did they just think a certain attack was coming and they guessed wrong?

To players that think DOA isn't complicated at all - I doubt you've won a DOA5 major... Some of the Tekken boys thought they could just come into DOA and they learned the hard way they couldn't... similar to golf. You don't just pick up DOA.

That goes without saying. And no one is saying that anyone can just pick up DOA and body people. GBVS is also not hard but I don't see random people bodying top players. DOA is the same.

 

[Seigen]

I like everything about DOA;

You like everything about DOA but the core mechanics that make DOA DOA it seems.

I would think tournament players in a tournament setting are the best people to show off the game...

Indeed they are, but the higher the players level and the unfamiliarity with eachother the more difficult landing successful holds is. DOA is all about strings and pattern recognition, the more familiar you are with a player and his patterns the easier to hold him becomes, that's why the more you play someone the less randomness there is; if both are good the mind games kick in. If holds would be just random guessing you'd throw them left and right like a headless cicken and hope for the best, with no chances of improving your successful holds ratio, but thats not the case. At high level when a player holds it is based on an educated guess when he recognizes a string or a situation and decides it's worth risking a hold, that doesn't mean it will be 100% guaranteed. JC Akira and E Mann made educated guesses.

If you think holds are just random guessing with no skill involved then I don't see why they bother you so much since there's only a 25% chance of being held in a 4 way hold system.

You're telling me that DOA players do that consistently?

Very good players do, especially if they're familiar with the opponent and/or the MU.

Also, I just want to point out that it was you who brought up "random" and "educated" specifically and I was just using the terms you used. I only said guessing and that was why I asked you how you differentiated random from educated.

Saying something is pure guessing implies pure randomness. Do you really not see a difference between throwing out random holds and holds based on reads or string and pattern recognition? I find that hard to believe. Throwing out punches and kicks is pretty much random in a match where players don't know eachother too. If holds are just random guessing then so is blocking, you have to guess to block, right? The more you fight someone the easier it becomes to block him. Do you have a problem with blocking too?

I'm not a pro so someone beating me or reading me doesn't mean much.

Why, if holds are just random guessing? You have the same chances of holding someone just as a top player has. Or not?

But, what is the difference between me getting hit and guessing wrong vs a tournament player getting hit and guessing wrong?

The difference is in the % of wrong guesses.

 

[human013]

You like everything about DOA but the core mechanics that make DOA DOA it seems.

Alright then. Seems like its all or nothing, either I love it entirely or I hate it entirely. I'll let you decide how I feel about DOA.

Very good players do, especially if they're familiar with the opponent and/or the MU.

Show me.

Saying something is pure guessing implies pure randomness. Do you really not see a difference between throwing out random holds and holds based on reads or string and pattern recognition? I find that hard to believe.

You really need to read what I wrote again.

holding is more guessing than anything

Which ones are random and which are educated? Tell me how you are differentiating random guessing from educated guessing. High, mid, and low attacks are all possible at any given time so when does throwing out a hold become random?

You keep saying reads and patterns, but look at the holds from tournament players. Which holds from Electrified Mann are random and which are educated then? The holds from Electrified Mann are random because he is not familiar with JC Akira but JC Akira's holds are educated because he can read Electrified Mann?

Explain to me how their use of holds are so different from everyone else. From what I understand people throw out holds because they think they know what is coming. Is this not how tournament players are using holds? There is something more than this?

 

[Seigen]

Ok, let me ask you some other way because I feel you're playing dumb.

Do you think that someone that just picks DOA, someone that just gets into his first DOA matches, with zero prior experience of the game, will have the same success rate at holding vs someone that has played the game for say 10 years and has good reactions at recognizing strings and patterns? Both are guessing when trying to hold. Are they the same? Yes? No?

holding is more guessing than anything

What does that mean to you?

Blocking is more guessing than anything too, since you have to anticipate the next move of the opponent to do it; what's your point?

The holds from Electrified Mann are random because he is not familiar with JC Akira but JC Akira's holds are educated because he can read Electrified Mann?

It may simply mean that JCA was better at the Helena MU than EMann at the Akira MU. Both player and character familiarity play a role on how you react to the opponent.

 

[human013]

Ok, let me ask you some other way because I feel you're playing dumb.

I don't know how to break this down any further when you keep avoiding everything lol.

• What are tournament players thinking when they throw out a hold and what are other people thinking when they throw out a hold?
• Is it something more than "He might do X so I'll hold with Y"?
• Where is this depth or difficulty in throwing out holds?

This is it and you can't even answer this at all. Not to mention how you can't even come up with guidelines for what is considered random and what is educated. Where are the clips of high level players doing what JC Akira did like its normal for DOA? Holds aren't even something like do A and B to frametrap or do C so you can safejump. It's just, "I think an attack is coming and I'm going to hold". From beginner to pro, that does not change. There is nothing else behind it.

Do you think that someone that just picks DOA, someone that just gets into his first DOA matches, with zero prior experience of the game, will have the same success rate at holding vs someone that has played the game for say 10 years and has good reactions at recognizing strings and patterns? Both are guessing when trying to hold. Are they the same? Yes? No?

Go look at my answer to deathofaninja. And what is with the obsession of having beginners fight against pros to prove a point? If I was to fight Master and he just uses his shenanigans and memes on me the whole match, or he handstands me to death does that make my claim of Hayabusa being broken and OP legitimate? If he holds me, a beginner, to death can I claim that he is amazing at predicting moves? Or do we use matches between people of the same level to make judgements? Because, you can see the top players guessing and failing on screen in tournament matches.

• If it is considered "good reactions at recognizing strings and patterns" vs a beginner, then what is it considered as when those same top players play each other and miss their holds?

It may simply mean that JCA was better at the Helena MU than EMann at the Akira MU. Both player and character familiarity play a role on how you react to the opponent.

So which was random guessing and which was educated??? Apply your rules to the holds used in the match. Why did EMann throw out those holds? Is it because he thought certain attacks were coming? Or were there other reasons? Please just tell me these complex and advance mechanics that were used when throwing out those holds that differs from everyone else.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

Everyone knows that doa is a rps game, this topic is so old don't really understand that if killer instinct can accept it's a guessing game why can't some of it's players accept that for doa. heck mkx is a harsh guessing game as well. Trying to make doa complicated than what it is isn't going to do the game justice regardless. learning fighting games is way easy than it was before with info on the internet. Also alot of fighting games are easy to pick up and hard to master gbvs,bbtag,dbfz,sfv, and doa the hardcore fg's are gone in favor of easy execution it's 2020 sorry. it's common sense at this point.

 

[Napoleon]

DOA is not VF.

It's not the same punish, it's not the same pacing, it's not the same dash, it's not the same throw break system, it's not the same combo system, it's not the same wall combo, it's not the same evade/sidestep, it's not danger zone but ring out...

+ the stun and hold gameplay is very unique to DOA.

 

[Onryoki]

Making DOA more simple with trash mechanics isn’t helping DOA as well. DOA was already quite complex with DOA5LR. If they only fleshed out the format they had for DOA5, DOA6 would’ve been a great fighter. I don’t mind DOA changing, but if you’re gonna change the system, replace it with something as good, or even better.

The stages in DOA6 are a hot mess, yes they’re fun but they’re also broken, with a few exceptions of course. DOA6 is easily described; it has everything the fans asked for, but it also falls short on so many aspects.

 

[Project Bokuho]

Making DOA more simple with trash mechanics isn’t helping DOA as well. DOA was already quite complex with DOA5LR. If they only fleshed out the format they had for DOA5, DOA6 would’ve been a great fighter. I don’t mind DOA changing, but if you’re gonna change the system, replace it with something as good, or even better.

The stages in DOA6 are a hot mess, yes they’re fun but they’re also broken, with a few exceptions of course. DOA6 is easily described; it has everything the fans asked for, but it also falls short on so many aspects.

Agreed! And @DestructionBomb

Spoiler

 

[Raansu]

I guess I'm jumping into this current convo late, but I'm bored waiting for these windows server updates to finish lol.

Like it or not, the core mechanics of DoA does hold the game back. If DoA is to ever take off and be a respected fighting game the core mechanics need to be overhauled from the ground up.

DoA's ground game even in the "good" versions wasn't very good unless you played a handful of characters that had real ground game setups.

DoA's holds, regardless if you like the concept, are a problem. Don't have to get rid of them, but to remove some of the randomness they really should be heavily limited, but that would have to coincide with a stun game overhaul reducing the amount of things that stun. Making it something like holds can work in neutral, but the recovery time would need to be significantly longer than what is now and make it so when you do win the neutral game and get a stun, the followup is guaranteed.

That or leave the hold system as it is with being able to hold out of stuns but significantly increase the amount of stun types you can't hold out of. Bring back feint stuns and make make lift stuns, spin stuns and sitdown stuns all unholdable. The risk/reward in doa is always skewed, especially in doa6 with the stupid break hold mechanic. Simply put, holds are one of the biggest problems holding back doa and the one thing that keeps a lot of competitive people away. Don't need to remove the mechanic, but its overall design does need to change.

Throw breaks.....Good Lord does this game need throw breaks. I used to be against the idea, but outside of throw punishment from unsafe strings and punishing holds any throw done in neutral needs to be breakable. The throw system in doa has heavily favored faster characters because of the lack of throw breaks. Speedy characters are essentially better grapplers than grapplers.

Free step still sucks in terms of evading linear attacks, and the current version of side stepping is a sloppy way to implement side steps, especially with it being tied to meter. I'll take it over DoA5's heavily situational SS, but we neerd something that actually steps and punishes things and not like how the baseline SS in 5 and 6 work where you step and then get bitch slapped from a string retracking.

DoA can still be DoA while also evolving to be a better competitive game.

 

[Project Bokuho]

I guess I'm jumping into this current convo late, but I'm bored waiting for these windows server updates to finish lol.

Like it or not, the core mechanics of DoA does hold the game back. If DoA is to ever take off and be a respected fighting game the core mechanics need to be overhauled from the ground up.

DoA's ground game even in the "good" versions wasn't very good unless you played a handful of characters that had real ground game setups.

DoA's holds, regardless if you like the concept, are a problem. Don't have to get rid of them, but to remove some of the randomness they really should be heavily limited, but that would have to coincide with a stun game overhaul reducing the amount of things that stun. Making it something like holds can work in neutral, but the recovery time would need to be significantly longer than what is now and make it so when you do win the neutral game and get a stun, the followup is guaranteed.

That or leave the hold system as it is with being able to hold out of stuns but significantly increase the amount of stun types you can't hold out of. Bring back feint stuns and make make lift stuns, spin stuns and sitdown stuns all unholdable. The risk/reward in doa is always skewed, especially in doa6 with the stupid break hold mechanic. Simply put, holds are one of the biggest problems holding back doa and the one thing that keeps a lot of competitive people away. Don't need to remove the mechanic, but its overall design does need to change.

Throw breaks.....Good Lord does this game need throw breaks. I used to be against the idea, but outside of throw punishment from unsafe strings and punishing holds any throw done in neutral needs to be breakable. The throw system in doa has heavily favored faster characters because of the lack of throw breaks. Speedy characters are essentially better grapplers than grapplers.

Free step still sucks in terms of evading linear attacks, and the current version of side stepping is a sloppy way to implement side steps, especially with it being tied to meter. I'll take it over DoA5's heavily situational SS, but we neerd something that actually steps and punishes things and not like how the baseline SS in 5 and 6 work where you step and then get bitch slapped from a string retracking.

DoA can still be DoA while also evolving to be a better competitive game.

Like button!

 

[DestructionBomb]

It's 2020 about to be 2021 soon, and yet DOA still has a mediocre neutral step and free step lol.

 

[human013]

No, you can't say that. If you don't like how it plays, just go play another game!!! You're changing the core system too much. It's not DOA anymore!! You're removing the depth and casualizing the game!! You just don't understand the depth DOA has. Beginners can't beat pros so that means DOA has depth and holds are perfectly fine.

In all seriousness though, TN just needs to do what Guilty Gear is doing. People complained about GGST and how did Daisuke and his team respond? That is the direction they want GG to go in and that's it. Ignore the people who want DOA to stay the same because it clearly is not working. Go in a completely new direction, build the game from the ground up, and tell all the people who are complaining to stfu and F off. Especially the people who play DOA. They are the people who never want change but wants their game to be taken seriously.

 

[etherealsadness]

As far as the holding thing goes, people who are more experienced with DOA will start holding with intention behind it or attempt a hard read. Sometimes people hold and hope to shutdown their opponent's aggression correctly. If your opponent keeps "spamming" holds that just tells me to start grabbing more and stop throwing out them mid jabs After all DOA is a rock, paper, scissors game.

An example of intentional holding is this DOA5 Match between Rikuto and XCaliburBlades

Rikuto's refusal to change up his plan ended up losing him the game because XCaliburBlades knew that he was going to keep throwing out the same string over and over again.

Tbh I think DOA is easier than ever. I thought DOA5 was had more ways to pressure someone, especially with all the force tech moves basically everyone had. I have Helena ptsd lmao Im not sure if DOA6 has the same amount since I rarely ever see it.

As far as grabs are concerned, I think there should be a grab break mechanic cus as @Raansu said, DOA does favor speedier characters. I think its fucked up when Im playing Tina or Rachel and my grab game is getting outdone by Kasumi or whatever.

This is just my two cents as a semi casual fan. I think the game is fun but honestly fuck the lack of content and stages, especially that pirate one with that big ass octopuss. So annoying.

 

[deathofaninja]

I see what you are saying, but Rikuto didn't just throw out the same hold or string on purpose - in that match against Helena (who is one of Rikuto's least favorite characters to fight) he threw out everything he had and nearly won the match. Throwing is not always the best option against Helena seeing as how many options she has to avoid them. Yes you can challenge her lows like Rikuto did here, but it's a gamble, and Helena dominates the matchup over Bayman in high level setting.

One thing I would like to see given to heavies is not throw breaking, but more viable strings and moves overall for heavies. I think that I like throw breaking overall in other games such as Soul Calibur - but the throws I do commit to in Soul Calibur I go in with almost 100% confidence that the startup animation of the throw is going to be successful whether it gets broken or not.

If someone is dodging my throws left and right in DOA without the need of a throw break.... why the hell do we need a throw break other than to give heavies an extra benefit? In Soul Calibur it is tougher to avoid throws and the crouching and hop mechanic is slow, sloppy and clunky. That game needs throw breaks because of how utterly slow it is.

Not to mention heavies have WON tournaments in high level settings for DOA6... Bass has been very successful and Hoodless won an event with Raidou so it's not like that type isn't winning.

I do agree in thinking that heavies & grapplers should have superior throw damage to any other characters by far, and I think that Ayane has been getting away with OP throw damage long enough.