DEPTH: Helena vs Lisa

[ChrisArmoun]

Well, I'm just going off of what DrDogg said. He (possibly) teased that Helena is "worse than La Mariposa", and has also said that La Mariposa is low tier. He's an experienced player who has had extensive time with the game, so it's a safe bet that he's right. Is it possible that someone might find a loophole with Helena later on down the road that jumps her up a few tiers? Sure. It happened with her in DOA4 after all. I just don't see it happening again, though. Hell, she's been awful in every game besides DOA4 and DOAD.

I understand where you're coming from and won't dispute that. It's just that even among competitive players, their opinion on tier can vary greatly. SF4 for example has varying tier list based on the opinions of top players like Daigo, Justin Wong etc. When characters don't fit your style or have an "off" feel it can affect how you feel about them in the grander scheme. There's just so much subjectivity with regards to tier and I've seen tiers completely change once a game is released and in the marketplace for a period of time. We can only hope that DOA4 and DOAD are preludes to her improvements.

 

[DrDogg]

I am starting to notice something. For the most part, characters that were good in DOA4 are not necessarily no longer good but, not as dominate as they use to be. The characters that were not as good (low tier) are getting stronger, their getting that limelight special. Just a theory that I have, of course it doens't apply to like a character or 3.

Lisa was low tier in DOA4 and she was low tier in the IPL build of DOA5.

I want to see how good Helena is once someone puts in this dedicated time TN is speaking on.

Been there, done that... Since I'm not cleared to discuss anything outside of these videos, let me break down what you saw.

- Between those two videos, Helena only used 2 safe attacks. The Lisa player just never punished anything.
- P+K doesn't crush anymore.
- Her damage is terrible. Even when a danger zone is involved, her damage is still lackluster.
- Did you see BKO go under anything? Hmm...
- PP2KP is gone. Her main juggle ender... is gone.
- How many mid-punches did you see? Hmm...
- How many unholdable stuns did you see? Hmm...

I don't have a final build yet, so maybe some last minute changes improved her, but even Shimbori confirms she's been super nerfed so... yeah.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Been there, done that... Since I'm not cleared to discuss anything outside of these videos, let me break down what you saw.

- Between those two videos, Helena only used 2 safe attacks. The Lisa player just never punished anything.
- P+K doesn't crush anymore.
- Her damage is terrible. Even when a danger zone is involved, her damage is still lackluster.
- Did you see BKO go under anything? Hmm...
- PP2KP is gone. Her main juggle ender... is gone.
- How many mid-punches did you see? Hmm...
- How many unholdable stuns did you see? Hmm...

Thanks for the info. This sucks hardcore.

I don't have a final build yet, so maybe some last minute changes improved her, but even Shimbori confirms she's been super nerfed so... yeah.

Why? What exactly is point of doing that?

 

[synce]

Not to discredit DrDogg but if the director says Helena has potential I'm going to trust him. I think TN has had more time with the game than anyone here. But for the record Helena was broken in DOA4 in the right hands, the only way to go is down and I'm happy with that.

 

[TRI Mike]

...This is retarded. What possible reason could they have for removing PP2KP!? I'm extremely disappointed. No stuns, shitty BKO, extremely unsafe, main juggle gone, no crushing, terrible damage... This kills a lot of hype.

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

Why would they do that ? Can't they buff her a little bit ? That's terrible news.. well.. we'll have to fight harder if we want to win.
Anyway, thanks Dr. Dogg for your suggestions. I hope they still have time to improve her gameplay.

What did you suggest them exactly if I may ask ?

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

Lisa was low tier in DOA4 and she was low tier in the IPL build of DOA5.



Been there, done that... Since I'm not cleared to discuss anything outside of these videos, let me break down what you saw.

- Between those two videos, Helena only used 2 safe attacks. The Lisa player just never punished anything.
- P+K doesn't crush anymore.
- Her damage is terrible. Even when a danger zone is involved, her damage is still lackluster.
- Did you see BKO go under anything? Hmm...
- PP2KP is gone. Her main juggle ender... is gone.
- How many mid-punches did you see? Hmm...
- How many unholdable stuns did you see? Hmm...

I don't have a final build yet, so maybe some last minute changes improved her, but even Shimbori confirms she's been super nerfed so... yeah.

I'm guessing a LOT of her shit can be sidestepped easily too right? Wow...I feel like they keep saying that the VF character influenced the rest of the DOA cast, but all I'm seeing is part of the cast being slightly influenced while the rest are being shit on lol...

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Not to discredit DrDogg but if the director says Helena has potential I'm going to trust him. I think TN has had more time with the game than anyone here. But for the record Helena was broken in DOA4 in the right hands, the only way to go is down and I'm happy with that.

Helena was broken, really? She was what number 4 on the tier list, underneath Ayane, Gen Fu and Hayabusa. That means they were all broken too then right? She had an extremely strong mix up off of her grab, that did not make her broken. Misinformed opinions like yours are likely the reason she wound up being nerfed so hard.

It's certainly not like Busa and Ayane wound up in the trash can now did they?

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Helena was broken, really? She was what number 4 on the tier list, underneath Ayane, Gen Fu and Hayabusa.

Which tier list was that? The one in the DOA4 board here has her at number 2.

 

[DrDogg]

What did you suggest them exactly if I may ask ?

I'd rather not provide details because then you'd have a list to see exactly what didn't make it in. My suggestions were about the same as you've seen me discuss here. Safer transitions into stance and all of that. Helena IS safer going into BKO, but unfortunately it's a moot point against most of the cast. If you don't have advantage in a stance you can't block from, it doesn't take much to figure out how to evade/interrupt every option from that stance. Lisa has the same problem with her running stance. Sarah doesn't have that problem though.

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

Well Tier lists differ from a community to another, but it would be a shame if Helena went from almost #2 to #23 (just an example). The poor girl would be even less popular in online.

Dogg : Oh, okay then. Well thanks a lot again. I reeeaaalllyyyy hope they will listen to what you said. At least, I want them to make their best not to nerf her TOO much. Well, no more questions from me, I'll wait for September and figure out by myself.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Which tier list was that? The one in the DOA4 board here has her at number 2.

No way she was number two, you could debate whether she was third or fourth but that's it. Busa and Gen Fu were at the top, although some thought Gen Fu was top, most people agreed Busa was.

I have looked at tier lists online myself and most of them are garbage, a lot of them saying Helena was mid tier which was crap.

Fun fact, on DOACentral Gen Fu and Hayabusa's forums were the only two that had no discussions going on in the match ups thread. Seven years and no posts lol

 

[MasterHavik]

Hey Dogg...question about Lisa. Is Deja vu an effective throw with Lisa?

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

Wait, if Helena could CB in less than 3 hits, could that help her case ?

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

No way she was number two, you could debate whether she was third or fourth but that's it. Busa and Gen Fu were at the top, although some thought Gen Fu was top, most people agreed Busa was.

I have looked at tier lists online myself and most of them are garbage, a lot of them saying Helena was mid tier which was crap.

Hmm. Maybe I'll edit the on we have here. Here it is by the way, if you haven't seen it.

 

[TR3 StayRealChill]

The only thing we all can do right now is twiddle our thumbs and wait for this game to hit store shelves so we can make the proper judgment call on whether or not if she's viable cause those two vids really didn't show too much, as we all agreed on. It doesn't make much difference to me though, I'ma play a character cause I like playing with said character; so I will be playing Lisa alongside Gen Fu cause I like the character...jus sayain

 

[DR2K]

I can understand them wanting her to be a skill based character, but even with everything she had in DOA4 she still took a lot to win, but how can she be for advanced players if she doesn't take advantage of all the new mechanics and ideas in DOA5? Why would players with "skill" appreciate a stripped down character with nothing to offer? Did these people not work with AM2, the general community to find a better solution?

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Hmm. Maybe I'll edit the on we have here. Here it is by the way, if you haven't seen it.

It's just my opinion but I find it very hard to believe that Helena was better than Gen Fu. He had the exact trap Helena had with his 236F+P except you couldn't block his jab after he caught you forcing you to counter it. Plus he did tons more damage, had a faster jab, his 6P was god like, he was safer, he could parry, his 3P+K was just as good as Helena's P+K except his follow up crushed high's too. The list could go on for a while so I'm gonna leave it there.

 

[MaxwellMouse]

I don't want to jump the guy on this but from what I have been hearing lately about the Virtua Fighter characters and characters like Helena. Sounds like DOA5 may have some balance issues. I know not every characters can be equal, or every game as balanced as VF:FS. I never expected that. I wonder what a Sarah vs Helena match up looks like for instance. Just sounds like the difference between top and bottom tier in this game may be enormous.

I'm just basing this on what Drdogg has said, so hopefully it is not the case.

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

After all, it's in TN's interest to balance her. "Extremely technical" characters which doesn't reward the player tend not to be the most popular, especially since she was the least used female character in DOA4 online.