The lack-of-stagger-escape glitch poll
- Thread starter Rikuto
- Start date
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
If you ask me, it's barely enough. NH means whiff punishment took place instead of running up and mashing buttons resulting in a lucky CH. Whiff punishment takes far more effort (spacing, baiting, reacting, positioning) than just running up into someones face and rolling the dice. It should, in fact, give more damage then the easy run-of-the-mill CH.
It should do big damage. In fact it should do some of the biggest.
In other games, CH doing more damage is justifiable because you take a very real risk when going for it. Here, you don't. So the logic has to be applied somewhat backwards.
MajesticBlue
Active Member
I find other games more cut and dry then Doa. Also throw in the low risk very high reward (Since almost everything is a counter hit in Doa it is kinda like anything anybody does is a huge risk for high reward, it is just whoever guesses right first.) aspect as well as string delay. The real problem with Doa it seems is the lack of normal hit launchers or logical punishment. In Tekken most of the time the move you throw out is as punishable as it should be. When you go for big damage and mess up you die. You made a mistake. I don't see how going for a poke and having to guess for such a large chunk of life makes sense. That would be like after using Lar's df1 on hit and getting a chance to guess for a rather large chunk of life and good oki. Even though Doa pokes don't work like Tekken, it sounds extreme. Tekken may have SS launch but you still messed up by doing a linear move. I just want risk vs reward to make sense.
What is anybody really risking going for a poke in doa? Yeah there are holds and punish throws but the guessing is rather large. I don't think anybody can hold 13-15 frames on reaction unless it is a very obvious animation. So trying to beat out a delayed string or being counter hit by any move faster the you that stuns should put you that deperate and guess heavy of a situation?
If somebody lands a sitdown stun I agree, the person who got hit by it messed up and needs to eat big damage. I just don't think everytime anybody taps somebody they should be in said situation. If some of the larger stuns were slower moves I could see it. Lots of moves that have deep stuns are around 14 frames though.
I wonder how many of the cast members can get guaranteed CB! after one guess? If this was used more like.
Stun- *guess*Sitdown-launch. I could kinda see that being ok. Stun-*guess* Sitdown-Sitdown-CB-PB_danger zone_untechable. The second one just seems like way too much to get off of a poke and one guess.
This is Doa though...and everything is different when it comes to Doa. I realy wish I had a Ps3 to mess around with this.
What is anybody really risking going for a poke in doa? Yeah there are holds and punish throws but the guessing is rather large. I don't think anybody can hold 13-15 frames on reaction unless it is a very obvious animation. So trying to beat out a delayed string or being counter hit by any move faster the you that stuns should put you that deperate and guess heavy of a situation?
If somebody lands a sitdown stun I agree, the person who got hit by it messed up and needs to eat big damage. I just don't think everytime anybody taps somebody they should be in said situation. If some of the larger stuns were slower moves I could see it. Lots of moves that have deep stuns are around 14 frames though.
I wonder how many of the cast members can get guaranteed CB! after one guess? If this was used more like.
Stun- *guess*Sitdown-launch. I could kinda see that being ok. Stun-*guess* Sitdown-Sitdown-CB-PB_danger zone_untechable. The second one just seems like way too much to get off of a poke and one guess.
This is Doa though...and everything is different when it comes to Doa. I realy wish I had a Ps3 to mess around with this.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
You aren't slow escaping a non-sit down deep stun as it is on 1.02, nor 1.03. So what are your reserves exactly? The situation hasn't really changed the game for you.
If you wanna tell Team Ninja to make the game have fewer standing deep stuns, great. I agree with that, but its a separate issue entirely. It isn't connected to this one at all.
Batcommander
Well-Known Member
@p1naat
Yes, that combo is a one hit combo that does 115-130 damage counter depending. However, it is i18, a high attack, will only work at close range, and is unsafe on block. As it is, i would say it probably needs a damage scaling component if used in stun, because CH1PK, F+K>>guaranteed combo is doing like 180 damage, which is more than a CB combo.
But other than that, it's fine as it is.
Yes, that combo is a one hit combo that does 115-130 damage counter depending. However, it is i18, a high attack, will only work at close range, and is unsafe on block. As it is, i would say it probably needs a damage scaling component if used in stun, because CH1PK, F+K>>guaranteed combo is doing like 180 damage, which is more than a CB combo.
But other than that, it's fine as it is.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Sounds like something that only lands if your opponent is playing like an asshole. I approve.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
That would make Hitomi a very dangerous character xD
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
If it has the power to make all the whiny Hitomi players actually shut up for ten minutes this is something that must be done.
Batcommander
Well-Known Member
the only reason i think it needs adjustment is because it diminishes the need to play with your CB's. It's faster and requires you to actually not cross threshold to work. It just feels . . . broken, really. But other than that, the move is balanced imo
MajesticBlue
Active Member
I would think lots of stuns hover in the range to do a sitdown without SE. To be honest I can't name anything off the top of my head though so maybe it is black and white in that regard. It would change CB quite a bit though. I remember when I was going through Hayate's stuns. I only found like 2 that allowed his CB to connect if they SE. That is another interesting change. Pretty much your CB options open up.
Regardless, if it is best for the game then whatever. At least there would be people to play the damn thing with. Also, if we find things are off we could try and mess with the health again. Large with guaranteed CB combos might not be that bad. I have a feeling that would defeat the purpose for some of you though. If people play the damn game there isn't much to really complain about.
Regardless, if it is best for the game then whatever. At least there would be people to play the damn thing with. Also, if we find things are off we could try and mess with the health again. Large with guaranteed CB combos might not be that bad. I have a feeling that would defeat the purpose for some of you though. If people play the damn game there isn't much to really complain about.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
Meh, I couldn't care less about CB's.
Some combos have a place for them, some don't. I don't use CB's at all in any of my setups. It's completely inefficient. So why worry about it?
Damage is damage.
Nobody ever slow escapes the first hit to any successful degree, so thats one of those theoretical non-issues. By the time your brain has even registered that you've been hit and its time to start spinning, the stun is already half over. The second hit and everything after are the ones that matter.
Some combos have a place for them, some don't. I don't use CB's at all in any of my setups. It's completely inefficient. So why worry about it?
Damage is damage.
Nobody ever slow escapes the first hit to any successful degree, so thats one of those theoretical non-issues. By the time your brain has even registered that you've been hit and its time to start spinning, the stun is already half over. The second hit and everything after are the ones that matter.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Other games have stagger escape, notably Virtua Fighter, but ONLY certain stuns are SE able. (Look for the waggling stick icon that comes up now and then).
There's no reason DOA couldn't keep its unique flavour completely, and still tighten things up by removing SE from certain stuns.
So it would be the flipside, you can SE most things, but specific, controlled things, if you get hit/don't counter it, the next hit is guaranteed.
Clearly, Sit Down stuns should be these non SE-able hits. Creates certainty in the design process because they can design SE's to be the kind of moves players can see or avoid, but get punished if they don't. If you're a smart attacker and you avoid getting countered or blocked when you land a sit down, you deserve your follow up reward.
There's no reason DOA couldn't keep its unique flavour completely, and still tighten things up by removing SE from certain stuns.
So it would be the flipside, you can SE most things, but specific, controlled things, if you get hit/don't counter it, the next hit is guaranteed.
Clearly, Sit Down stuns should be these non SE-able hits. Creates certainty in the design process because they can design SE's to be the kind of moves players can see or avoid, but get punished if they don't. If you're a smart attacker and you avoid getting countered or blocked when you land a sit down, you deserve your follow up reward.
Okay. This glitch may be something to work with. I agree sitdown stuns shouldn't be slow escapable out but things like Lisa's k+f/ssk should still be slow escapable.
There is a skill to both sides of it, to slow escape from those turning stun and then come out with the right reaction. You end up in BT so holding guard adds another 2 frames before it guards, holding 8/2 is pretty safe but you can still get caught if you don't block when you see the attack and you can get thrown. Back dashing out is safer but it puts you at a run in range with a slight disadvantage since they have the frame advantage. However if the attack has knock you next to a wall, then they get the combo/juggle free.
It's a nice meta-game, something I'd much prefer than the "Okay now I can just work stun, or go for a quick juggle or set up a throw" which is *YAWN* everywhere else in the game.
There is a skill to both sides of it, to slow escape from those turning stun and then come out with the right reaction. You end up in BT so holding guard adds another 2 frames before it guards, holding 8/2 is pretty safe but you can still get caught if you don't block when you see the attack and you can get thrown. Back dashing out is safer but it puts you at a run in range with a slight disadvantage since they have the frame advantage. However if the attack has knock you next to a wall, then they get the combo/juggle free.
It's a nice meta-game, something I'd much prefer than the "Okay now I can just work stun, or go for a quick juggle or set up a throw" which is *YAWN* everywhere else in the game.
MajesticBlue
Active Member
Most of the characters I have looked into really have very little use for it as well. So I seldom use it or go for it. It is just something I haven't seen pop up yet so I found it kinda interesting. The way I look at fighting games is a little different then most. I think too much. It really wouldn't matter much though since unless it is guaranteed you would have better options anyway. Like you said.
Not slow escape also had it's benefits. Less chances of being thrown/OHed, allows the player on the disadvantage to manipulate the rhythm slightly.
Accidentally ending up crouching status and being hit adds more damage to a landed attack/launcher. You can had to watch out for not countering/attacking while slow escaping. Also the obvious minimizing damaging by stopping a combo.
Accidentally ending up crouching status and being hit adds more damage to a landed attack/launcher. You can had to watch out for not countering/attacking while slow escaping. Also the obvious minimizing damaging by stopping a combo.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Every sit down stun in the game guaranteeing CB? > No.
Linking multiple sit down stuns together to guarantee CB? > No.
Removing slow escaping entirely? > Fuck no!
Removing slow escaping from sit down stuns? > If they receive a general frame reduction then yes.
Improving useless +13 type sit down stuns? > Definitely.
I like the idea of characters with crappy sit down stuns being able to guarantee something worth while but this isn't the way to implement it.
Take Jann Lee's F+K and Ayane's 3F+K sit down stuns for example. It doesn't matter whether or not the opponent slow escapes once that stuns hits the follow up is going to land and the follow ups are definitely lucrative. Buffing the shit out of these stuns makes no sense. This glitch in effect does this.
If TN makes all the garbage stuns in DOA5 actually useful I will be happy but from what I am reading this is simply overkill. If you have a sit down stun that guarantees a great follow up then why care if the opponent can slow escape? Let them mash as much as they like it won't make any difference.
The change that this glitch has brought about sounds like it could work but only if it is implemented correctly, and this sounds like a botch job.
Linking multiple sit down stuns together to guarantee CB? > No.
Removing slow escaping entirely? > Fuck no!
Removing slow escaping from sit down stuns? > If they receive a general frame reduction then yes.
Improving useless +13 type sit down stuns? > Definitely.
I like the idea of characters with crappy sit down stuns being able to guarantee something worth while but this isn't the way to implement it.
Take Jann Lee's F+K and Ayane's 3F+K sit down stuns for example. It doesn't matter whether or not the opponent slow escapes once that stuns hits the follow up is going to land and the follow ups are definitely lucrative. Buffing the shit out of these stuns makes no sense. This glitch in effect does this.
If TN makes all the garbage stuns in DOA5 actually useful I will be happy but from what I am reading this is simply overkill. If you have a sit down stun that guarantees a great follow up then why care if the opponent can slow escape? Let them mash as much as they like it won't make any difference.
The change that this glitch has brought about sounds like it could work but only if it is implemented correctly, and this sounds like a botch job.
dawnbringer
Active Member
Regular stuns are stagger escapable in 1.03. Unholdable stuns are kinda escapable, but by 1 frame at most (according to my tests).
In this paragraph I'm going to talk about holdable stuns. I dislike current implementation of stagger escape for button mashing. I wish stagger escape could be timing-based instead of mashing, similar to throw breaks. For example, if I react to getting hit by pressing
, if my timing is on point, I get the best escape, etc. Timing may depend on stun type/animation.