DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[Matt Ponton]

In terms of decimal matchups, the charts support that... so I don't see why you guys aren't submitting them.

 

[J.D.E.]

I forgot Ayane & Hitomi. Both are 5-5. I edited my post.

 

[Something-Unique]

You should leave it without decimals Matt. Things get extra messy when going that route. Tier lists can be quite accurate without them.

 

[Bushido]

In terms of decimal matchups, the charts support that... so I don't see why you guys aren't submitting them.

Well, I remember last year you (or somebody) told me decimal match-ups didn't count.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Well, I remember last year you (or somebody) told me decimal match-ups didn't count.

At the time the sheets didn't support it.

You should leave it without decimals Matt. Things get extra messy when going that route. Tier lists can be quite accurate without them.

Personally I agree. With decimals it makes it difficult to honestly say what the difference between 5.3 and 5.4. In addition, the primary point is that you're taking a 'best of 10' match count as the primary consideration for a matchup. I don't know how one character would win 4 tenths of a match, either they won or they didn't.

 

[Brute]

Well, Ayane, Hayabusa, Eliot and the VF's seem pretty hard at both a high level and low level.

Jacky and Sarah I actually don't feel have unnecessarily steep learning curves for beginners. They have a different feel/flow from your typical DOA character which throws people off, but they have fairly intuitive fundamentals and I don't feel like you have to jump through 100 hoops to get down their most basic stuff. This is in contrast to, say, Akira, who is a steep ass mountain on any level of play.
But apparently a lot of people think, for example, that Hayabusa and Ayane are easy-to-learn, easy-to-use characters, and that only their utmost mastery requires some skill/dedication. I obviously disagree with the sentiment, but that's kinda my point. Everyone throws around the term "hard to master" as if it's some exclusive, surprising element to the character they play, regardless whether it actually is.

Some characters, such as Momiji & Rachel, are clearly designed to be beginner characters that get balanced by not being braindead at higher levels *coughsgenfucoughs*.

No one is "braindead" at high level play. But are Momiji and Rachel still more braindead than the average character? At the risk of causing widespread sphincter pains, yes, they are. And Gen Fu users are still adamant to this day that he is incredibly hard to use at top level, neglecting the fact that such an assessment should be made with a comparative mindset. It's also ironic considering the point of tiers at "top-level play," but whatever...

I like the system where the harder to use characters are supposedly better than the easier to use beginner characters. It properly rewards the amount of effort you take to learn a character proper (in a perfect world of course).

I like that system, too. It's a shame that Team Ninja does not.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Jacky and Sarah I actually don't feel have unnecessarily steep learning curves for beginners. They have a different feel/flow from your typical DOA character which throws people off, but they have fairly intuitive fundamentals and I don't feel like you have to jump through 100 hoops to get down their most basic stuff. This is in contrast to, say, Akira, who is a steep ass mountain on any level of play.
But apparently a lot of people think, for example, that Hayabusa and Ayane are easy-to-learn, easy-to-use characters, and that only their utmost mastery requires some skill/dedication. I obviously disagree with the sentiment, but that's kinda my point. Everyone throws around the term "hard to master" as if it's some exclusive, surprising element to the character they play, regardless whether it actually is.

Technically you still have to put in work to utilize Jacky or Sarah properly, but once you get down their tech, they do become a lot more straightforward (But those Flash Sword kicks on a pad ugh). Ayane and Hayabusa require constant management of their gameplay at all times in order to be effective and are far from straightforward. They have the illusion of being easy or beginner friendly because almost every 2-bit scrub online uses them and mashes out unsafe shit in lag to get wins. The way how most Ayane players win online hurt my eyes.

No one is "braindead" at high level play. But are Momiji and Rachel still more braindead than the average character? At the risk of causing widespread sphincter pains, yes, they are. And Gen Fu users are still adamant to this day that he is incredibly hard to use at top level, neglecting the fact that such an assessment should be made with a comparative mindset. It's also ironic considering the point of tiers at "top-level play," but whatever...

I play Ayane & Kasumi so I don't quite get the luxury of seeing what it feels like to use a "braindead" character competitively, but in my experience, the easier to use characters are still easier to use at high level compared to the more challenging characters, especially if you've developed your fundamentals. In other words, the harder to use characters don't all of a sudden become easier just because it's a higher level of play. Then there's Helena & Christie whom I'm not certain which category that they fit in.

I like that system, too. It's a shame that Team Ninja does not.

It is a logical system isn't it? But that would require Team Ninja to be logical too.

 

[Requiem]

I actually sometimes intentionally whiff 3H+K because of how much space it effectively controls as a zoning technique. But your suggestions could work! (It's -3 on block if I'm not mistaken but I wouldn't mind it being 0 again )

You are correct. Mea culpa, I forgot about the number change! It's a very similar mindgame nonetheless.

 

[StrikerSashi]

At the time the sheets didn't support it.



Personally I agree. With decimals it makes it difficult to honestly say what the difference between 5.3 and 5.4. In addition, the primary point is that you're taking a 'best of 10' match count as the primary consideration for a matchup. I don't know how one character would win 4 tenths of a match, either they won or they didn't.

Well, I think even something odd like 5.4 is better than forcing something into a 5-5 when it's fairly advantageous towards one side. And for the "best of 10" thing, it'd just be a best of 100 instead. That said, I don't support decimal values that aren't just .5s 'cause there's no way people are gonna agree on stuff like that.

 

[Black Dragon]

Ryu > Kokoro?

 

[Matt Ponton]

Updated Event Hubs Standings:
S - Ayane
A - Christie, Kasumi, Sarah, Gen Fu, Helena, Hayate, Leifang, Rig, Mila
B - Momiji, Jann Lee, Jacky, Pai, Hitomi, Ryu, Kokoro, Zack, Akira, Tina
C - Lisa, Rachel, Alpha-152, Marie Rose, Brad, Leon, Ein, Bass, Bayman
D - Eliot

Comparison to FSD:
S - Gen Fu
A - Christie, Ayane, Sarah, Kasumi, Leifang, Helena, Pai
B - Hayate, Jann Lee, Akira, Jacky, Momiji, Ryu, Alpha-152, Bass, Bayman, Mila, Hitomi, Lisa, Rig, Marie Rose, Tina, Zack
C - Ein, Brad, Leon, Rachel, Kokoro
D - Eliot

 

[Brute]

There used to be some understandable congruence between the two.

Not so much anymore.

 

[FatalxInnocence]

I'm kinda curious as to why La Mariposa / Lisa is so low on most of the current tier lists? can anybody list reasons as to why she is? Or have people just not addressed her yet?

~ I personally don't see much of a difference between the two tier lists. Apart from Kokoro being much higher on the event hubs tier list- they're pretty much the same. Key words there being "pretty much". A few characters dropped from mid to lower mid on eventhubs tier list, but that's not really a drastic change.

 

[Prince Adon]

Kasumi match ups vs

Kasumi 5-5
Brad Wong 5-5
Mila 5-5
Helena 5-5
Kokoro 5-5
Bayman 6-4
Christie 5-5
Rig 6-4
Jann Lee 5-5
Zack 5-5
Ayane 5-5
Hayabusa 5-5
Eliot 6-4
Tina 5-5
Lisa 5-5
Akira 5-5
Alpha 6-4
Sarah 5-5
Bass 6-4
Lei Fang 5-5
Hitomi 5-5
Hayate 5-5
Momiji 5-5
Gen Fu 4-6
Pai 5-5
Jacky 5-5
Ein 6-4
Rachel 5-5
Leon 6-4
Marie Rose 5-5

 

[Requiem]

Well, I think even something odd like 5.4 is better than forcing something into a 5-5 when it's fairly advantageous towards one side. And for the "best of 10" thing, it'd just be a best of 100 instead. That said, I don't support decimal values that aren't just .5s 'cause there's no way people are gonna agree on stuff like that.

Actually, I agree with this. Put in decimals, and you'll suddenly see me do a ton of shading, but for now I don't mind keeping it more basic for sanity.

 

[David Gregg]

There used to be some understandable congruence between the two.

Not so much anymore.

Regardless, I didn't need a tier list to show me where my main falls. Not giving up on him though he's not as terrible as other players make him out to be...

 

[StrikerSashi]

It's okay, those throws are hella good.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Kasumi match ups vs

Kasumi 5-5
Brad Wong 5-5
Mila 5-5
Helena 5-5
Kokoro 5-5
Bayman 6-4
Christie 5-5
Rig 6-4
Jann Lee 5-5
Zack 5-5
Ayane 5-5
Hayabusa 5-5
Eliot 6-4
Tina 5-5
Lisa 5-5
Akira 5-5
Alpha 6-4
Sarah 5-5
Bass 6-4
Lei Fang 5-5
Hitomi 5-5
Hayate 5-5
Momiji 5-5
Gen Fu 4-6
Pai 5-5
Jacky 5-5
Ein 6-4
Rachel 5-5
Leon 6-4
Marie Rose 5-5

S - Gen Fu
A - Christie, Ayane, Sarah, Leifang, Helena, Pai, Kasumi
B - Hayate, Jann Lee, Akira, Jacky, Ryu, Momiji, Hitomi, Lisa, Mila, Alpha-152, Bass, Bayman, Rig, Tina, Zack, Marie Rose
C - Brad, Ein, Leon, Rachel, Kokoro
D - Eliot

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Regardless, I didn't need a tier list to show me where my main falls. Not giving up on him though he's not as terrible as other players make him out to be...

That's the beauty of DOA, the "low-tiers" are very much as viable as the "high-tier" characters compared to say, most 2D fighters. You just need to dig a bit deeper into your character's tech.

 

[Zeo]

Again, it's not even close to complete because of lack of participation.

If you're complaining that Akira is too low, by all means, contribute some MU suggestions for him. He won't magically jump up the tier list until someone does the work.

You're absolutely right. Well, let's dip into Akira as a whole just a bit. I may speak what I know of MU's but my knowledge is limited and skewed by online play.

Lets look at Akira's pros and cons here. Going to try to be as quick as possible but... yeah still gonna be a wall of text.

Pros

General Offense - A quick rundown of his more potent tools. His frame advantage high and low jabs. 66p i12 true mid. i16 high crush mid punch that stuns on NH and has force teching properties, i16 high crush high punch lift stun on CH, i25 high crush low punch with +25 (no SE) stun on NH and half high crush 246p with 58 damage knockdown and potential wall splat round out his crush game well.

i15 mid kick that's +22 on NH with a high followup into sidestep and mixup. And completely negates the neutral game up close with guard breaks that clip through opponent's defense on a dime as long as they're blocking high. He has an i16 mid punch +12 guard break as well, but it has large pushback and like the other GBs, is negative on NH. i23 sit down stun that guarantees 33P (best mid punch launcher) into guaranteed 70 to 100+ damage and + frames on block to round it up.

All in all, once you're in, it's not difficult to crack open your opponent, the only issue is getting them to respect you enough to lock down and block.

Damage - Akira is in the top 5 if not top 3 for overall damage purely through his stun launch and environmental damage. Damage ranging from 90 to 110 on single guess stun launches and damage teetering on 170 from nearly any environment as well as the undisputed best wall damage in the game through 246P which if used in any situation for a wall splat is a guaranteed 110 damage (MINIMUM) up to near 150 with no guessing (Play the stun game a bit and we're getting close to 200).

Also we'll throw in that he gets 51 points of damage up to 80 guaranteed off of his guard breaks with additional potential damage from wall splats and objects, which in the case of the latter takes him over 100 points of damage off of the opponent blocking.

His throw game is also solid simply through his 64T into close juggle combo which is one of the strongest i10 throws in the on NT and the best i10 throw in the game on HCT with 115 points of damage with the added bonus of wall splatting which takes him up to 125-135, still not counting partitions which are netting him nearly if not over 200 points of damage. That's half life off a single throw and two 3rd's of a character's health if they were daring enough to hold with Akira behind an object.

TLR: He's i the top 5 best stun > launch and environmental capitalization and has the best wall damage in the game.He hits like a truck and can kill you in 2-3 combos regardless of where you are on the screen.

Speed & Advantage - He's a single step below the fastest characters but has very respectable speed all around. An i10 jab, an i12 mid punch and an i12 low punch. As for his i12 mid, it's got a special property in that while it has no followup, it's safe on block and is checking every other i12 mid in the game outside of Zack's i12 6K and the resident i12 GET OFF ME moves (Hayate/Momiji/Kasumi 7K, Lisa 4H+K.).

What separates this set of CQC tools from others however is that the mid (unlike other i12 mids) is safe, the low punch is +1 on NH, and the Jab is +2 on NH and +1 on BLOCK. Either of these turn his 66P into the strongest i11 (or 10) mid in the game. I could go into all his frame traps but this isn't an Akira topic.

Let's just throw this out though. 214P, i23 mid punch that not only guarantees his 2nd best launcher but is +1 on block and the advantage increases the further away the opponent blocks it, +5 at tip range. Yeah.

Safety - P, 2P, 66P, 3K, 3H+K, 46P, 43P, 214P, 4PP, 4PP+K. Still not finished but the short version would be to say about 85 to 90% of his movelist is safe. If you're getting throw punished as Akira, you're playing him wrong.


Sidestepping Power.

One of the best sidesteps in the game in SS P+K which is a double sidestep which is going over 100 if you hit them into the wall. SS P is one of the quickest interrupters and +5 on NH for frame traps. Plus a tracking low kick with a guaranteed followup on any hit as well as another potential frame trap for a scary offense.

Cons

Strings & Sidestepping - His largest issue and the one thing that puts him short of him reaching the highest tier (S) is his serious lack of potent sidestep snuffers. He's got 4P which is a crushable high that leads into an awful (but safe) high followup with wall splat potential but little else and a mid punch followup which is linear and can be held on reaction. He also has 214P+K which is an 18 frame mid punch which is a decent step catcher but is something that must be committed to doing expecting a sidestep in advance and thus really something you're just putting on the screen on a gamble. He's also got a tracking low but he only has access out of his own sidestep.

On top of his lack of tracking moves, he's a character devoid of real strings as a whole outside of PP which is considered a string. Because of this, when he's on the offense you can sidestep safely most of the time out of fear of retaliation as he's largely a single poke character. In the midst of all his advantage, damage and offensive capability this is his most glaring weakness which is enough to keep him out of the highest tier. This also automatically makes the Christie matchup hell for him as he has literally no answer to JAK (Sly Bass has confirmed that 214P+K is not a true mid and that JAK has crushed it.).

Range & Spacing Game - A general weakness of all the VF characters is their questionable spacing game. In this field, Akira is the middle ground character, he handles spacing easier than Sarah or Pai, but I believe Jacky has a slightly easier time with it.

Akira's best pokes are 666P, 3K and 66P+KP at range. For whiff punishing he has 466P+K but it's i17 and also one of the most unsafe moves in the game so it's generally not getting thrown out. His most potent whiff punisher is 246p which is i15, 2.30M range, a half crouch mid and takes a nice 58 damage from the opponent's whiff and a whopping 72 in the case of CH. The issue is it's difficult to buffer instantly while reacting to a whiff and is unsafe on block which discourages liberal use of the move.

All in all, Akira is not the greatest in the spacing and range game and spacing characters can cause him potential issues, but they must play extremely smart as well as he does have tools available to punish bad whiffing.

Stun/Mixup Game and Potency - Some could consider this a weakness though it's arguable. Akira is largely lacking long stuns with his only real meaty ones being P and 4P+K in stun, outside of those his stuns are shallow and easily slow escapable severely limiting his options in stun. What makes this a non issue however is that he's largely built around large damage off of single launches and the environment. This makes playing the stun game with him inefficient and not recommended. Akira's mixup game shines while the opponent is on the defense. Once they've been stunned, it's time to launch, plain and simple. Still it's an area he's not exactly great in, hence it's spot here.

With that out of the way, I'll try to draft up a matchup chart. My knowledge is limited and skewed again due to online but I'll probably update this with help from Sly Bass and DestructionBomb.

vs Akira 5-5
vs Alpha 6-4
vs Ayane 5-5
vs Bass 6-4
vs Bayman 5-5
vs Brad 5-5
vs Christie 4-6 (Worst MU)
vs Ein 6-4
vs Eliot 6-4
vs Gen Fu 5-5
vs Hayate 5-5
vs Hitomi 5-5
vs Jacky 5-5
vs Jann 5-5
vs Kasumi 5-5
vs Kokoro 6-4
vs Lei Fang 4-6
vs Leon 6-4
vs Marie ?-? (No MU Experience)
vs Momiji 5-5
vs Pai 5-5
vs Rachel 6-4
vs Rig 5-5
vs Ryu 5-5
vs Sarah 6-4
vs Tina 6-4
vs Zack 5-5 (Limited MU Experience)