vINv
Active Member
they say that cuz its easy 2 win with her agaisnt ppl who dont know how to deal with frames
Anti-Rachel strats, tips, and tricks thread.
- Thread starter DR2K
- Start date
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately a large amount of people in this community are ignorant about frames. That's why you hardly ever see throw punishment both online and offline. You also have people completing strings that are like -4 or greater on block then still trying to attack afterward like they have frame advantage.
In general it's usually the players that either want to mash / crush their way out of every situation or ones that just feel it's a nuisance to be constantly put into the situation where you have to make a read that find Rachel "cheap" or "OP". The only things about her that should be changed IMO is her weight class and the amount of advantage on whiffed stomp. Whiffed stomp should still be frame advantage but considerably less to limit what she can safely follow up with. I wouldn't even care if they didnt touch the frame advantage. She just doesn't need to be heavyweight.
Last edited:
You don't know how many times I play online and punish people just for hitting buttons. People get up and start hitting buttons. People are across the screen and start hitting buttons. I'm at frame advantage and people start hitting buttons. It's pretty annoying considering in this game hitting buttons get you killed especially when you don't know wtf you are doing. The problems most people have against Rachel is they keep pressing damn buttons.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
x MAD AXES x
Member
I remember when someone kept attacking me after stomp for 10 matches XD, the hate mail.
Itz King Beebop
Active Member
Brute, Strider, and whoever else feels that Rachel is "OP"... Can any of you explain to me where Rachel's GOOD matchups are, and also why they are such good matchups for her? If it is completely simple reasoning, I'll accept it, but for now no good matchups have been discussed. Usually anti-character threads are for players who have bad matchups (Bass v. Speed characters for example) but all of you people sound like you're just mad, 'cause like Black Mamba, Tenryuga, and Return of the Shadow have stated, most of you DOA players just hate Rachel 'cause you can't mash buttons... all you have to do to fight Rachel easily, is use common sense.
x MAD AXES x
Member
Too early for match ups to be discussed, though I can see Rachel beating Tina, to name one, Rachel will get nerfed (and with that a ridiculous unneeded nerf), because people like to cry about new solid characters and not bother learning the mu.
You're essentially asking us to create a tier list placement for Rachel a few weeks after the game is released, which I'm not going to do. But if you want one example of a match-up, I'll go with Ryu, since that's where I have the most experience. Some say he has distance over her, but his distance options are lacking due to the fact that all are quite slow and can be SS'd (we all know Rachel is a competent SS-er). Don't get me started on the roflcopter kicks. Up close, Rachel has a one-frame slower jab. But, she has way better mix-ups off her PP string (on third hit can hit at all levels [her low is +on block] or go for an OH reset or her SS moves, guessing wrong on the mid gets you in a SDS). Ryu has only high-mid mixups that are negative on block or two low pokes that are negative on NH, meaning a standing blocking beats everything. She also has the same frame mid. She has consistently better string mix-ups and low pokes that are +on NH, is safer on basically every string (Ryu has a few pitifully slow guard breaks), has her FT pressure that leaves her at advantage when whiffed (that really is a one-of-kind sorta thing, Ryu's FT pressure has been nerfed heavily like everyone's, save Rachel), and is a heavyweight, so she can't be juggled for jack. Her holds also deal great damage and put you back into her "blender." Meanwhile Ryu is a midweight with Izunas. So you're left in a position that's basically either "Get in first and hope you never slip up the entire match" or "consistently make perfect reads all the time and get expert holds" and as we all know, "Make perfect reads" will allow you to win every single fight, so it's kind of a wonky strategy.
If that were the case, I'd be on an anti-Hayate tirade because I lose to him consistently more than any other character in the roster. But I'm not, because I acknowledge that for whatever reason I'm not that great at fighting him and need to step up my game. It's not a matter of me losing against her (in fact, I've won the majority of my matches against Rachel, though that may be attributed to them being scrubby players); it's a matter of bad game design. At no point do some of Rachel's tools feel competently considered in light of the rest of the cast. It's much the same as my dislike of Alpha.
It seems like any time someone proposes that something "could be better than it is now" they're lambasted for "not being able to adapt." Maybe I can adapt fine but can still see that ideally, the game could be designed better in some areas and that some nerfs and buffs would potentially make it better (even when I can still "deal with it" and "adapt" to the game in its current state).
And seriously, if you knew me better, you would know I do not mash buttons. At all.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Tis the truth right here.
x MAD AXES x
Member
I would put money on it and say most of Rachel's mus will be 5-5 as people find out how to deal with her, with fast characters that can rush down well be 6-4, she may dominate a certain character, but I won't give the name out.
Nobus3r1
Member
Pretty much this. I stopped playing 'vanilla' DoA5 after Mila got patched out of the game only picking up Ultimate DoA5 ~1 week ago. My week one Rachel (w/~1 year layoff from playing the game period) is winning at a ~60% clip because people don't stop pushing buttons.
vINv
Active Member
Raze
Member
Some of this is absurd. You can crouch block her
string on reaction, it can even be crouched on reaction after eating the first two strikes, you can crouch/fuzzy her throw on reaction as well. Ryu has a low circular sweep that is +13 and +7 on fastest possible recovery, which forces your opponent into a horrible nitaku situation (yes VF terminology). Rachel has no low circular sweep to setup nitaku and gets far less +frame advantage from her lows. The lack of fighting game fundamentals of DOA players is readily apparent. The lack of frame data in the character forums on this site is also atrocious. Nobody understands what to do because everyone is too lazy to add all the frame data on this site. @ VFDC we have all the characters basic frame data up and easily accessible. There are lots of discussions on nitaku, reverse nitaku, what you should and shouldn't do in those situations. DOA5 has introduced a lot of VF concepts and people seem to be struggling horribly with them. Cheezy terms like blender are used in place of using actual frame data and breaking down what can and cannot be done. There aren't any threads in the character forums that show which moves allow for guaranteed follow ups, and there are guaranteed setups in this game, every character has them.. So all this bitching from players that can't block lows, or crouch throws on reaction is ridiculous. Acting like you should be able to compete equally, and win a match, where you cannot out read your opponent is also laughable. Heavy weights take less damage from launches and combos in all 3D games, acting like this is new and unheard of is beyond comprehension. I see a Bayman player in this thread bitching about Rachel, and inferring absurd things like delayed throws should somehow not be able to beat a fuzzy guard, wtf is that! I mention these things to my VF friends and they just #facepalm. How about doing something positive like starting a frame data thread on your main character, or any of the characters you use.
Last edited:
x MAD AXES x
Member
I'll happily right a list of rachels frame data on block, on hit, counter, each stagger escape over the weekend, if anyone wants me to.
Dior
Member
x MAD AXES x
Member
Ok I will, I'll post a legend for the new players as wellI would totally love that, please do!
That would an awesome contribution to this forum and to everyone that reads it
Just so I can copy paste this
Legend
1=Downback
2=Down
3=Downforward
4=Back
5=Neutral
6=Forward
7=Upback
8=Up
9=Upforward
H=Hold
P=Punch
K=Kick
T=Throw
CH= Counter hit
HCH= High counter hit
Example move here block data here hit +10 no stagger escape
Example move here block data here hit + 8 slow stagger escape
Example move here block data here hit + 5 fast stagger escape
Example move here block data here hit + 3 fastest stagger escape
Move Block Hit CH HCH
P
P,P
P,P,P
P,P,4P
P,P,K
P,P,2K
P,P,T
P,P,8P+K
P,P,2P+K
K
K,K
Should I make a new thread?
Last edited:
You could say the same for every mix-up in the game with that logic. Certainly every slower character/telegraphed move (of which Ryu has plenty). You're not about to tell me that Bayman/Bass' strikes are useless because you can read them "on reaction" are you?Some of this is absurd. You can crouch block her
The i23 that by your logic should be able to be read on reaction? The one that positions your opponent in an odd place so that fast characters can beat out your better follow-ups? The one that can't be done from any strings except 33P2K (horribly slow) or 1P2K (dual lows with no other string ender for mix-up)? and his only +on NH low option? Okay. Nice thorough analysis. I still don't see how having one tracking low somehow makes my statement that Rachel has far superior string mix-ups than Ryu "absurd."
Frame data is lacking on the site so that means DOa players lack fighting game fundamentals?
1) Site is not the culmination of DOA players or the community
2) DOA fundamentals often work differently because with holds more than frame data is required to incorporate move efficiency into mind games
3) I have memorized Ryu's frame data. Basically the properties on every single move in every single situation. There are exceptions, obviously, but for the most part, I have it engrained in my memory. Many others are the same, I'm sure. Just because it's not on the site does not mean we do not know it.