Hitomi is too weak

Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
While I would also disagree to the statement @Force_of_Nature did when saying Christie is harder to use as Hitomi, I also think you guys should not make that much comparisions to a character who is (almost) indisputable one of the best in the game when talking about Hitomis strengths and weaknesses. Im pretty sure that everyone here knows that the list of characters that top 8 matches and (especially) finals of tournaments were won with would look significantly different if Christie wouldn't be in the game. She might be harder to use when it comes to execution and combos, but surely not when it comes to mind game, offensive and defensive.

Anyway, what I want to point out is that just because Christie is being used by many top players while Hitomi isn't does not mean that she's not a viable tournament character as someone stated above. As comparison, Kasumi is placed in the top 5 or top 10 in the tier list of most players as well, way higher as Hitomi, though the total count of them being used in tournaments is certainly almost the same. There might not be many players using her, but some of them can still reach top 8 with her convincingly and also did so in the past. That means, just because you've seen Hitomi at the lower end of some tier list or being conspicious by her absence in tournaments you've watched doesn't mean you cannot do great with her.



Are you sure that you know her toolset? I already pointed that out in my last posts: she has a couple of moves that are faster than that, therefore no, you don't need to answer with 16 frame attacks or slower. If you're using the wrong things in the wrong situation, then you won't get anywhere, as you might agree.



Therefore, I think it's pretty obvious and easy to understand that you cannot and should not use attacks with a speed of 16 frames or above for retaliation or counter-hit attempts when being in the defense. If you do so, you will get beaten out easily indeed, especially online.

Hitomi has 6P as mid punch and 6K as mid kick, both are 13 frames. She has a 10 frame high punch and a 14 frame high kick. She has a 14 frame low punch that will evade highs and even give her +1 advantage on normal hit, making her speeds equal to the fastest characters in the game. Beside those attacks, she can make use of her parry as well as of normal holds.

6K2K is 13 -> 20 frames. Her 2H+K is 18 frames and grants advantage on normal hit due to causing a light stun. These two are equally fast as Kasumi's low openers or pressure tools, and this character is one of the fastest in the game (Hitomis 2H+K is even faster as all of them). So I don't see where she is slow af, @Kirito. You guys should simply stop complaining about speed.

And these things are everything she needs at close range. Having 13 frame mids is not "averagely slow" and becomes equally dangeous to other strikers if you consider how easy she can get (minor) advantage by using her lows. Thereby, it doesn't matter how most of her xxx tools are. You could have 100 or more additional moves that would hit the on the same level but are slower or more unsafe, you are supposed to use the one that serves your purpose best. And if you only got one, then you're gonna use this one. Don't try to be a fancy mix up master by thinking you need to use every single entry of your move list in one match. The only thing you need to is being effective.

Asking if you would get away with those against mid hold mashers is kinda superflous because your opponent has to make the same guess on the hit level and hit type as you do when going for the strike. Hitomi has it actually pretty good in this situation since both of her preferred mid counter hit tools are the same speed (see above). And if you lose to mid hold mashers, then you obviously did not make enough use of Hitomis large high strike arsenal, which you mentioned by yourself.

Hitomi's 2H+K is i19 :p. But yeah, it's still an amazing low. Eh, that is kinda what I meant. Execution-wise Hitomi is miles easier than Christie, but Hitomi needs to use her tools smarter. But when people talked about "who's harder". Execution of moves is generally the focus. Almost every character on the roster needs to be played smart to win at a high level. Kasumi also does perfectly fine in tournaments all things considered. Ayane's considered "Top Tier" too and she commonly gets wrecked at higher levels of play.


Good breakdown of Hitomi.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Using 2h+k is asking for trouble.

I wouldn't really call her mix-ups great. Hitomi's low is -1 on fastest SE, so you're really just looking for her guard breaks and pauses or cancels in strings.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Using 2h+k is asking for trouble.

I wouldn't really call her mix-ups great. Hitomi's low is -1 on fastest SE, so you're really just looking for her guard breaks and pauses or cancels in strings.

She also has a similar problem that Kasumi and Sarah have when the stun the opponent using certain attacks that the opponent staggers away from them beyond their reach..... for some moves atleast.

Or maybe this is omly a problem for me because I thrive on single strike stuns..... I don't like 2 hitters.
 

CityOfAngels

New Member
She also has a similar problem that Kasumi and Sarah have when the stun the opponent using certain attacks that the opponent staggers away from them beyond their reach..... for some moves atleast.

Or maybe this is omly a problem for me because I thrive on single strike stuns..... I don't like 2 hitters.

This is definitely not a problem exclusive to you lol. It happens to me ALL the time and its so frustrating.
 

XZero264

FSD | Nichol
Premium Donor
Either you don't know what you're talking about, or we do not understand each other.
Tell me how I am wrong and actually tell me instead of saying I'm wrong. Am I wrong that most people who mash are not using punches? Or are they just going for lows? Hell, are they mashing kicks? Most Christies I play who mash are mashing mid and high punches. You went from "They mash" to "I didn't say her parry was useless" without making a clear connection in a way to tell me I'm wrong. You said you don't use it against mashers when a parry is perfect for that kind of situation. You are going around contradicting yourself because we are trying to help you and when we do you tell us we are wrong because we are wrong. Am I wrong that one of the best ways to get advantage in your situation is a parry or is risking a hold really that much better? You have a choice: Guess or just take the hits.
You must not be understanding much based on "what you picked from my post" because I am a top ten placer in the past year of all offline easy coast tournaments I've been to using Leon and Ein, play frequently with other top ten players both online and offline, am currently in the Battle Royal standings (as few points as I have), and can hold my own against the tournament winners to a degree that not many other players that use Super Heavyweights can hold to.
I put together the current format of game data you see in the site wiki after heavily modifying the old formats and codes and have gathered extensive data that had never been gathered before to that degree for multiple characters and was openly recognized as a front page article for the first data sheet I put together for Mila before the old code became outdated. When i pick up a new character i want to play I do it in a way that I can pretend I am gathering the frame data of the character I want to use.
I use primarily super heavyweight characters who require an abnormal amount of skill to use to keep up with the rest of the cast. I do my research before asking for help and see who might have done it in areas that I hadn't considered.
I do know what I'm talking about, I rarely post things out willy nilly unless I am asking to be corrected on or expanded on. You asked for advice and I attempted to tell you some about something you said was useless and expand on how you can use your own tools to keep up. It's up to you to make the choice to go the old school way of finding out how to beat the mashing players or become one of the NRS players and whine about a seemingly unfair thing in an ONLINE environment where the smallest lag spike can drop entire command and beg for unnecessary changes that don't need to happen.
Try actually reading with a more open mind, you might learn something if you put aggression built based on the bias that everyone is out to get you on the internet in the backseat when you try to respond. Do I really need to go back to a mindset where I have to assume that you are an incompetent player who doesn't know the basics of the game or can I try to make suggestions with the assumption you know what you are talking about but can't comprehend why your way of playing isn't working? Give me a choice because I really can go either way and make you look like a complete fool in the process.
 
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Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Hitomi's mids are i13, so any character with an i12 (or i13 in the case of 6p) high kick will force her to jab or crush high. Unless you're playing a character like Mila, I'd think using the parry is only in your best interest when you're looking for a mid punch.

The safest thing to do against someone mashing buttons is to block and wait for them to make a mistake, not make unnecessary guesses.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
Hitomi's mids are i13, so any character with an i12 (or i13 in the case of 6p) high kick will force her to jab or crush high. Unless you're playing a character like Mila, I'd think using the parry is only in your best interest when you're looking for a mid punch.

The safest thing to do against someone mashing buttons is to block and wait for them to make a mistake, not make unnecessary guesses.

Or you can Mash them back.... except when you do it its called "Abare" because you're a tactical masher.

I found out that mashers can't take what they dish out.....
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
Last time I checked this thread was a few weeks ago when everything seemed not too bad and now this thread has turned into a flame war?! Seriously, @Sachertorte, you should stop being rude and offensive to other people who are trying to help you giving insightful information about Hitomi and teaching you how to deal with mashers. Yet you continue to be ignorant and start bashing them. I'm sorry, but this is just plain disrespect and disgrace at its finest. Also, you don't seem to know what you're talking about either. Here are plenty of examples:
While I think Hitomi is decent too [...]
A character can't be decent if you consider that character weak.
What Hitomi needs are tools, tools to beat out mashers as they deserve it. Also every character in the whole game has tools to punish mashers: Throws!
That's where her punch parry comes into play.
When a freaking christie does unsafe strings, it should be what it is, unsafe, a simple 6P doesn't go through somebody who mashes repeatedly PPPP? This is bullshit, and sorry if I don't simply mash out 2P all the time.
I assume you haven't played offline against another player yet, have you? @Force_of_Nature's post sums up perfectly what would happen in an offline scenario:
No Christie player that mashes mindlessly offline will win anything against a competent player.
At first I thought it was the lag [...]
That's because IT IS THE LAG!
But it seems like you really need to hold sometimes, and that's unfair.
Holds should be a tool, not a mandatory mechanic.
Then you are playing the wrong game.
But here is the thing, Hitomi is not easy to play even at a beginner level.
Try playing either Akira, Ayane, Helena or Brad Wong and you might wanna reconsider your definition of ''not easy to play'' character. Hitomi is a prime example of a basic character. While I admit that she is hard to master, the same can be said about every character.
The devs are credulously smart, and created a set of characters who demand no skill to play and are easy as can be, those are the Ninjas, which as a matter of fact are the ones that every scrub in this game is using.
Try playing or watch Kasumi, Ayane, Hayabusa or Hayate being played at a high level in an offline setting. They are not easy at all.
she demands patience and training to be good with [...]
The same thing applies to every character in the game.
For you to say that Christie is more complex and has a lot of techniques how do I take some this deluded seriously ?
But wait, even better she is HARDER to use than Hitomi?
Come the **** on this guy can't be serious, I have a hard time thinking there is anyone with brains here who can this kind of statement seriously.
Even though character difficulty has an inevitable subjective aspect, Christie is considered to be a more complex character than Hitomi by the majority of players. She has more tools, more moves in general, stricter timing on her combos, harder-to-execute strings and stances, which Hitomi lacks. You imply Force is delusional yet you provide NO BACK-UP for your statement that Hitomi is easier than Christie. Where is your evidence?
2PPP ? 14~18 frames being active on the very first ones?
Whereas the 2P is decent, it isn't smart to throw out the whole string in neutral because: 1) Unsafe on block and 2) The string has a fixed strike order: low punch-high punch-mid punch. It can be held on reaction.
I have picked christie myself and win against A+ rank people, because I'm telling you, it's so easy to lose against Christie scrubs in this game, when you actually play in an honest way and respect your opponent you will just get hit by people mashing or grabbing when you expect it the least.
Online matches count for squat. It means 0% in terms of skill.
And the reason I win is because not only she is fast but her delay strings are easy to perform too, I can just fool everyone into holding mids (since they expect mostly mids with Christie) And throw.
Her CB combos can be done by inputting only 2 simple as shit strings that even the lowest noob can perform, it's takes no freaking skill to do so.

Christie is a character that demands absolutely no skill AT ALL, you can win with her by simple mash and easy combos you can learn and execute in one hour because they are so assisted you don't even need to learn how to cacnel, recovery is as fast as execution with her, which means that you won't have to put in strict timing when mashing, anything works.
This only works online. And like I said above, online counts for squat.
She is the character every tournament player uses, since they know how strong and easy she is, she has moves that go through stuff that wouldn't work in normal times, sorry but being a "fast" character is not an excuse, it just means that she is braindead and allow for bullshit to apply itself.
Strong yes, easy no. The ''bullshit'' you are talking about only applies to online. Everything is 100% legit offline.
All I see is people who don't play Hitomi telling me that no she is fine and that Christie isn't op blah blah blah.
I think you are the one being delusional here. Nobody even mentioned that Christie isn't OP.
Hitomi is a character that you cannot win by using gimmicks or mashing, it simply is impossible, her simple strings are super predictible and limited, her fastest moves are most of the time highs.
Her mid strikes are averagely slow for what they should be, when I need to answer unsafe moves from the other guy I have to use 16 frames mids?
You think I'll get away with that against mashers and mid hold mashers?
I'm sure your complaining will stop when you stop taking online seriously.
And again Hitomi is a simple character [...]
And yet you contradict yourself. Again.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Or you can Mash them back.... except when you do it its called "Abare" because you're a tactical masher.

I found out that mashers can't take what they dish out.....
That isn't mashing though, that's a read under the assumption you're gonna be thrown.

When I read button mashing I assume actual button mashing.
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
That isn't mashing though, that's a read under the assumption you're gonna be thrown.

When I read button mashing I assume actual button mashing.

Like the type of Button Mashing done by someone whos never played a fighting game before ?
 

Force_of_Nature

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Like the type of Button Mashing done by someone whos never played a fighting game before ?
When someone is buttonmashing you, you need to pay attention to what they're "mashing you with". I.e. PPP, KKK, 6PPP, 6KKK, etc. etc. Ironically, DOA5LR probably gives you more tools than any other FG to deal with buttonmashers.
 

Kirito

Member
What about her mix-ups, and her easy 6T reset throw? And her FTs are very scary to deal with against an aggressive Hiromi player
"Mix-ups" are easily interrupted. Her string delay is slow af, and most of her strings are high-low.

6T reset is easily beaten by fuzzy guarding. A 6T that guarantees something is much better (Zack, Mila) - her 6T back in DOA4 guaranteed 46P on Hi Counter - that was scary, because if you were near a wall, you're fucked.

Hitomi's FTs are like any other characters - non-existent unless you're Rachel. Most Hitomi players I see use 2H+K to tech opponents up, which is terrible due to its slow af recovery. 3H+K used to be a good tool, but now it's unsafe - even Honoka's is better since she can actually tech opponents up with 2P - Hitomi's can't. 3H+K literally only scores a knockdown which she must back away from to avoid wake-up kicks.

Plus most of Hitomi's juggles have long recovery frames with her "osu" so you can't run up and FT unless you use 6PK enders which doesn't maximize damage.

Hitomi, like Jeffcore said, has nothing scary. Her stun game is shit, her neutral game is passable, but her wall game is good, not great.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Her mixups require switching from her sweep to highs, but the low is -1 on fastest SE. You can literally stand there and wait for her to make a mistake, guard break (which aren't particularly hard to react to) or try to throw from negative. She has to work pretty hard to open someone up.

Who doesn't have resets? Who doesn't have better resets? If someone blocks and you choose to attack, you're back to her weak mix ups trying to open them back up. You have to make them fear 33T (i12 throw that everyone has).

Force techs are great, but who doesn't have them? And what is she doing with the advantage? She's gotta make people fear 33T again or their blocking again.

Weak doesn't mean a character can't win or do well: there isn't a match up in the game worse than a 3:7.
 
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