I'm honestly getting tired of dealing with people's opinions on DOA

[Brute]

DOA is female-dominated as a franchise,

It didn't used to be. All the games through 4 had more male characters, and in 5 (vanilla) they were split about dead even (depends on if you count the VFs & Alpha). But then KT/TN realized how much money they could make by over-saturating the roster with half-assed female characters and voila, now we're here.

Point being, it wasn't necessarily a "female-dominated" franchise at the time that its stigma was forced.

 

[Baji Breakdancer]

It didn't used to be. All the games through 4 had more male characters, and in 5 (vanilla) they were split about dead even (depends on if you count the VFs & Alpha). But then KT/TN realized how much money they could make by over-saturating the roster with half-assed female characters and voila, now we're here.

Point being, it wasn't necessarily a "female-dominated" franchise at the time that its stigma was forced.

It’s absolutely always been female-dominated, because it’s not about roster ratios, but who’s presented as the leads of the franchise and more important in the game’s story and relevance. Kasumi is the Akira/Ryu/Whatever of DOA, and her rival is her sister. The plots have always revolved around the women way more than the men, and the women are on average canonically tougher than the men (taking into account tournaments, etc).

And even if you did just care about roster breakdowns, No other fighting game has as much female representation from the start. Especially in the 90s when other fighters had about 2-3 women at best.

There’s a classic psychology test that shows that men will on average think women are overrepresented in a group, even if in reality the ratio of women is only 40-50%. It’s a cognitive bias, and so when you have a franchise like DOA, many people will mark it as a weird outlier.

I’m not saying Team Ninja had no hand in their own franchise’s stigma, only pointing out that there’s way more going on here than “lol boobs.”

 

[SaihateDYNAMO]

It’s absolutely always been female-dominated...

...Especially in the 90s when other fighters had about 2-3 women at best.

 

[Brute]

It’s absolutely always been female-dominated, because it’s not about roster ratios, but who’s presented as the leads of the franchise and more important in the game’s story and relevance. Kasumi is the Akira/Ryu/Whatever of DOA, and her rival is her sister. The plots have always revolved around the women way more than the men, and the women are on average canonically tougher than the men (taking into account tournaments, etc).

And even if you did just care about roster breakdowns, No other fighting game has as much female representation from the start. Especially in the 90s when other fighters had about 2-3 women at best.

I can understand if you were arguing that it was "female-led," but "dominated" suggests that males were repressed or neglected in some way, which really wasn't the case in the earlier days. They didn't make it on the box art as much as the female characters, sure, but in the games themselves it was generally pretty even treatment and handling of both sexes, and then that gradually got more skewed over time.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

I think DOA gets more slack for their sexuality mainly because they always focus on the women. In SC, all the characters are sexualized equally and everyone is basically catering to a certain fetish/trope. SF also gets a pass since although they're DLC heavy too, they sexualized everyone the same as well, like of course Chun Li gets swimsuits and Laura has underboob and an exposed thong but Ed has super skin tight spandex shorts and is super muscle bound and Vega shows a huge amount of his chest and even midriff in one of his outfits, and that's just talking about 4 of the characters in SFv

the problem is that men in games most of the time, aren't created for the "female gaze" even if they're portrayed as sexy and tough, it's still catering to a male power structure, it's something that men can aspire to... people thirsting them is just a side effect.

 

[Baji Breakdancer]

Do you honestly think you’re making any kind of substantial counterpoint by ignoring everything else I said and by splitting hairs regarding the non-console release of DOA1, or is this a bad joke

 

[Brute]

Do you honestly think you’re making any kind of substantial counterpoint by ignoring everything else I said and by splitting hairs regarding the non-console release of DOA1, or is this a bad joke

It's both a funny joke and raises a fair point.

Consider that Soul Blade was released in 1995 (a year before the first DOA), and also featured three playable female characters (37.5% of its initial roster). DOA didn't have some unprecedented level of female representation among fighting games in the mid-90s as you claimed. The only things that set it apart were that the protagonist was female and it had breast physics. But to be fair, Sophitia was kinda the protagonist of Soul Blade, as well.

 

[Macca Beam]

dead or alive's issue isn't that of a skewed roster. there has always been a decent male:female ratio, and with 5 and 6 they even added body mesh variety for goddamn once. in fact, equality hasn't been an issue for any game. i almost don't see anybody talk about male characters in sf and sc and how healthy their games are that the dudes are also sexualized. skullgirls and arcana heart were female-driven franchises and there weren't any shitstorm over them either. i don't quite buy this theory of a group of people banding together to dismiss doa because they really, really like dudes.

it's more like the questionable mechanics (in people's eyes), a volleyball gravure sim, literally 1000 dorrar of dlcs and every press coverage talking about tit jiggles painted it as a bad fighting game

 

[Onryoki]

Now that KH3 is released and Doa6 is going to be out soon, I hope Dissidia starts getting the attention and development it deserves. Aside from that I think Doa6 is going to be the best doa. All changes that have been made are relatively fair. The only thing I would consider adding is to apply a hi-counter window on whiffed moves but that is just speculation. Maybe throw in Kage from VF and Shiden since there isn't enough ninja clones

TN should focus on Nioh2 after DOA6’s release. TN announced Nioh2 almost a year ago and so far there has not been any news regarding the game whatsoever.

Anyway back to the topic that’s currently going on. Even before DOAX3 and the $1000 worth of DLC, DOA still got a lot of hate for some reason. I do believe it got worse with the release of DOAX3 and the 100+ swimsuits/copy paste fetish outfits that we got during the Ultimate and Last Round era. The so called fake breast/ fanservice reduction controversy that has been going on since the announcement of 6 isn’t helping either.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

It’s absolutely always been female-dominated, because it’s not about roster ratios, but who’s presented as the leads of the franchise and more important in the game’s story and relevance. Kasumi is the Akira/Ryu/Whatever of DOA, and her rival is her sister. The plots have always revolved around the women way more than the men, and the women are on average canonically tougher than the men (taking into account tournaments, etc).

And even if you did just care about roster breakdowns, No other fighting game has as much female representation from the start. Especially in the 90s when other fighters had about 2-3 women at best.

There’s a classic psychology test that shows that men will on average think women are overrepresented in a group, even if in reality the ratio of women is only 40-50%. It’s a cognitive bias, and so when you have a franchise like DOA, many people will mark it as a weird outlier.

I’m not saying Team Ninja had no hand in their own franchise’s stigma, only pointing out that there’s way more going on here than “lol boobs.”

Rare time I side with @Brute here but no... that's not how that works.
Dead or Alive has always been given it's "stigma" due to the perceived notion(that was later validated by Itagaki by making Xtreme Beach Volleyball and not including a single male character and going on from there) that the females simply mattered more compared to everything else... which was never true.

While Kasumi can be stated to be the main character of Dead or Alive(which she is), ironically Soul Calibur fans see Sophitia as THE main character of Soul Calibur(next to Siegfried... but considering how badly people took her exit from SCV especially in regards to Patrokolos and how they advertised not only Lost Swords but even Warriors Orochi 3 and Soul Calibur 6 by having her revealed in the first lineup speaks volumes) and it's not like she hasn't been in the same situation of the plot revolving around her(and SCV literally revolves around her CHILDREN). Not to mention Taki and Ivy are definitely the next more well known characters outside Yoshimitsu and Siegfried/Nightmare?

The issue isn't some nonsense like cognitive bias because you can easily put that into any series. Street Fighter is literally the Ryu/Chun-Li/Cammy show to most people to the point Capcom has given the most costumes to the latter two characters even over Ryu, their main character. SNK has Mai Shiranui, Athena and Kula who can be stated to be on equal ground(if not higher) than Terry Bogard, Rugal and Geese(not to mention Kyo and Iori). And so on and so forth for any recognizable and well known franchise.

Hell, Skullgirls and Arcana Heart are the main 2 games that are female dominated in any real means and the latter has no male characters to speak of outside of the demon lord that's the staff one of the females use. Dead Or Alive only has ONE instance of female domination and that was DOA5... and most of that was due to multiple female guest characters,

 

[TRI Mike]

I think everyone shares a little blame on why DOA has the reputation it has. It's a bit of the fans, a bit of the media and another bit of Team NINJA themselves.

The fans because there's no denying that forums like these are an extreme minority. In fact, FSD is the only place in the entire internet where you can actually discuss gameplay from the series without the conversation being turned into an otaku festival. I've participated in other forums, social media and even those shitty PS4 communities and all they talk about are costumes and whether the girls are prettier now. Naturally, when people from outside try to reach the fanbase, that's what they're gonna find and they'll believe that's the only thing the games have to offer. DOAX3 doesn't help it either.

The media because of their massive incompetence nowdays. Any respectable gamer in the present knows that the vast majority of game journalism is extremely mediocre. Most of the articles I've read about DOA6 barely mention the stages' danger zones and how to use them, the new meter mechanics, how the stun system works, etc. All they write about is costumes and how, somehow, playing DOA makes us all rapists. The "gameplay videos" they upload are just two dudes mashing buttons without any ideas. I've seen hours of gameplay from Honoka and I still have no clue what she's capable of in the new game. Same with Helena, Tina, Eliot, etc. I said this in my Twitter the other night but those 5-second videos MASTER is uploading in the official accounts are doing a much better job than any journalism at showing what the game offers.

Then, there's Team NINJA themselves. DOA6 has been a PR nightmare because of Shimbori contradicting himself over and over. First he says the sex appeal is toned down, then says it's not. First he claims girls are covered to appeal to female gamers, then no. I think he should have never spoken in the first place except to show the characters, their moves and the stages. Team NINJA is also responsible because of the uncontrolled tsunami of fanservice DLC that plagued DOA5. As I said in my initial post. That brought with it a lot of otakus from the Neptunia/Nekopara/Senran Kagura/etc fanbases that genuinely believe the franchise exists for them only and that the only reason to play is to take cute pictures of the girls.

 

[SaihateDYNAMO]

Do you honestly think you’re making any kind of substantial counterpoint by ignoring everything else I said and by splitting hairs regarding the non-console release of DOA1

yes

 

[KasumiLover]

the problem is that men in games most of the time, aren't created for the "female gaze" even if they're portrayed as sexy and tough, it's still catering to a male power structure, it's something that men can aspire to... people thirsting them is just a side effect.

Yeah but even then they're still being sexualized as well too, and in more recent years they are created for the female gaze. They're designed to not only look cool and tough for the men since shirtless muscular men are considered cool by straight males but to also look appealing to the women/men(women aren't the only ones men are sexualized for nowadays) as well. Same with girls, outfits are designed for them to be cool and flashy as well for the men/women who play said character but they also have sex appeal as well too. That's a general thing nowadays in most games where everyone is designed with sex appeal, the male power structure won't view it as strange or sexual tho if it's done right, which is why most people don't complain about voldo in SC for example since the cool factor is way more prominent than the actual sexualization of his character

 

[DestructionBomb]

Ah well, despite how overly niche DOA is i'll still support it and the people who play the game just to play. It's an endless loop that DOA will never get rid of unfortunately with constant overused topics regarding sexualization, -insert other problems that doesn't spark the hormones here apparently- etc.

I already realized how hard as hell it was to convince people to play this game at my local scene in NY or expected it to be hard because the influence and rumors behind the series just completely takes over. Many times I told people like "Look man all that shit you heard about, throw it out the window and I'll help you how to play this game. Which character you like? oh Mila? cool cool. Yeah that's the guy from Ninja Gaiden, Hayabusa right? it's no problem." Which didn't last very long. The most we've gotten for a huge crowd and some people interested was when me and Bboy started playing casuals while Spooky and people in the background cheering at Akira gameplay every time Akira landed a hit on someone or did a combo (sound effects and crowd chants lit up the damn room over the Smash and Marvel sets, that's how loud it was), but there's no real point when that character is not even from DOA nor even returning for DOA6. @Hold_Junkie93 was there a few times a while back and he's seen cases like that for DOA.

I honestly have lost interest spreading DOA love like I use to before 6 was even announced since people didn't want to take the game seriously. (Seriously as in: DOA looks fun maybe we should play with these guys and give it a shot) and you can't force anyone to like it either so it was really up to them. Me, Bladez, and I guess anyone who still around will still play it, but most cases we just end up watching other people play other games there since it just be us 2-6 playing DOA. Course if anyone is interested, jump right in. If not, not going to reach.

 

[Project Bokuho]

I already realized how hard as hell it was to convince people to play this game at my local scene in NY or expected it to be hard because the influence and rumors behind the series just completely takes over. Many times I told people like "Look man all that shit you heard about, throw it out the window and I'll help you how to play this game. Which character you like? oh Mila? cool cool. Yeah that's the guy from Ninja Gaiden, Hayabusa right? it's no problem." Which didn't reach out much. The most we've gotten for a huge crowd and some people interested was when me and Bboy started playing casuals while Spooky and people in the background cheering at Akira gameplay every time Akira landed a hit, but there's no real point when that character is not even from DOA nor returning for DOA6. @Hold_Junkie93 was there a few times a while back and he's seen cases like that for DOA.

That sucks.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

That sucks.

It's honestly the same way with games like Arcana Heart, Skullgirls and even stuff like UNIEL, Blazblue and Guilty Gear despite how they seem to have more people playing... it's still in the same issue of people ignoring them because "EW Anime" and walking off to play Street Fighter(ironic...)

DOA isn't the only game with a negative stigma it can never remove, it's just the latest in the long line of reasons people say for fighting games.

 

[DestructionBomb]

It's honestly the same way with games like Arcana Heart, Skullgirls and even stuff like UNIEL, Blazblue and Guilty Gear despite how they seem to have more people playing... it's still in the same issue of people ignoring them because "EW Anime" and walking off to play Street Fighter(ironic...)

DOA isn't the only game with a negative stigma it can never remove, it's just the latest in the long line of reasons people say for fighting games.

No definitely not Guilty Gear. That game has a similar hype to Marvel and Smash over here including BB Crosstag (not as big as Marvel and Smash obviously) but GG and BBCT are likely to be picked over DOA because it's latest trend and sticks out more, not because it's anime. By that logic DBFZ wouldn't be as popular as it now, is an anime fighter, and is also the most popular anime fighter up to date because it's Dragon Ball. Skullgirls don't get as much flack either when that game has been preached to having the greatest training mode in the world vs other fighters which is true, that game's training mode blows out majority of fighting games training mode (Hitbox viewer, input error checks etc.)

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

No definitely not Guilty Gear. That game has a similar hype to Marvel and Smash over here including BB Crosstag (not as big as Marvel and Smash) but GG and BBCT are likely to be picked over DOA due to the fact that it's latest trend and sticks out more, not because it's anime. By that logic DBFZ wouldn't be as popular as it now, is an anime fighter, and is also the most popular anime fighter up to date. Skullgirls don't get as much flack either when that game has been preached to having the greatest training mode in the world vs other fighters which is true, that game's training mode blows out all the training mode vs many other games (Hitbox viewer, input error checks etc.)

You forget DBZ is such a massive outlier for most people, some would go as far to say it ISN'T anime just so they can be justified in liking it despite hating anime.
And you say GG and BB but it's only really on the Eastern Side, Western side usually ignores both games and they don't get anywhere near as much people as the East Side does.
And Skullgirls may not get as much flack, but not that many people play it because of the stigma of only 2 male fighters in a female dominated game.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Ah well, despite how overly niche DOA is i'll still support it and the people who play the game just to play. It's an endless loop that DOA will never get rid of unfortunately with constant overused topics regarding sexualization, -insert other problems that doesn't spark the hormones here apparently- etc.

I already realized how hard as hell it was to convince people to play this game at my local scene in NY or expected it to be hard because the influence and rumors behind the series just completely takes over. Many times I told people like "Look man all that shit you heard about, throw it out the window and I'll help you how to play this game. Which character you like? oh Mila? cool cool. Yeah that's the guy from Ninja Gaiden, Hayabusa right? it's no problem." Which didn't last very long. The most we've gotten for a huge crowd and some people interested was when me and Bboy started playing casuals while Spooky and people in the background cheering at Akira gameplay every time Akira landed a hit on someone or did a combo (sound effects and crowd chants lit up the damn room over the Smash and Marvel sets, that's how loud it was), but there's no real point when that character is not even from DOA nor even returning for DOA6. @Hold_Junkie93 was there a few times a while back and he's seen cases like that for DOA.

I honestly have lost interest spreading DOA love like I use to before 6 was even announced since people didn't want to take the game seriously. (Seriously as in: DOA looks fun maybe we should play with these guys and give it a shot) and you can't force anyone to like it either so it was really up to them. Me, Bladez, and I guess anyone who still around will still play it, but most cases we just end up watching other people play other games there since it just be us 2-6 playing DOA. Course if anyone is interested, jump right in. If not, not going to reach.

I can understand your sentiments and frustration with trying to promote DOA, but give it one more shot with DOA6. At least here in TO from what I've gathered, there's a bit more people potentially interested in DOA6 than there were for DOA5. Once DOA6 drops I'll be running both a launch party, and will try to promote DOA6 as well as I can at my local offline scene. If it works it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't. But yes, in my experience so far, I do find that dispelling the stigmas and pre-conceived stigmas is pretty paramount when promoting the competitive/gameplay aspects of DOA. Basically meaning keeping talk about "fan-service", costumes, DOAX, and boobies to a minimum, and just focusing on the gameplay. I find that people respect DOA a bit more if they see that you're "good" at DOA, and show that the game isn't easy to win at in person and is legit. But yeah, if people aren't interested, I never force them and move on.

I do agree with @TRI Mike that TN has been doing an atrocious job of promoting DOA6 to people outside of the Twitter fanbase. TN has been committing a cardinal sin in marketing that is "mixed messaging". I.e. DOA6's promotion has not been clear and the game's focus has been confusing the public. I understand Shimbori's frustration with the game's media/journalism constantly going on about the fanservice, because to the Japanese, this shit shouldn't really be that big of an issue, though Shimbori unfortunately needs to be more careful with how he communicates things. For instance, I wish that he didn't make any mention at all about DOA6's fan-service being "toned down". It's just incredibly frustrating every time some media coverage focuses around fan-service and this godawful SJW bullshit, and there's always minimal if any attention with regards to the actual gameplay.

Someone up above implied that TN should just hit the reset button and reboot DOA, like NRS did with MK9.

As for Guilty Gear & BlazBlue (and even UNIST), compared to DOA, people actually respect the airdashers/anime fighters.

 

[Brute]

I mean, it's hard to promote a product I'm not impressed with. Unless DOA6 turns out to be a lot better than it looks, I doubt I'll be supporting it offline, let alone trying to convince others to.